Some Suggestions on fixing OP items

[Kunai]

Well 150 archery is alot easier to hit than spec 6 thief. Allbyou need is a marksmans bow or some other items
Thief is otherwise roughly the same archery dmg as a PP without the option of usings spells like a PP can. Lower healing than a PP, alot less armor and no shield (thieves are restricted to studded leather)
Thieves have no tactics, harder time to find suitable items.
And keep in mind PPs can use poison too. So the only benefit a thief has in PvP towards a PP is a few higher poison levels on their weapon. So not odd that they should do abit more damage with it.
But vs a war or PP a thief will not reach enough gear to damage them significantly with the arrows themself, almost all damage will come from the poison which doesnt scale at all with gear, only with spec level

[pred]

So what's your suggestion?
It's a big difference between warrior and thieves. Warriors got items to lose which thief pretty much don't have?
You know a really good gear takes awhile to get so why should thieves be OP against warriors when thieves got so little to lose?

[Vex]

Mar 23, 2015 15:01:06 GMT 1 pred said:

So what's your suggestion?
It's a big difference between warrior and thieves. Warriors got items to lose which thief pretty much don't have?
You know a really good gear takes awhile to get so why should thieves be OP against warriors when thieves got so little to lose?

Mages, which are the strongest counter to warriors, generally pvp with a small amount of reags, a few potions, and a few scrolls. Using your logic, why should they be OP against warriors, when they have so little to lose?

[pred]

Obviously mages are the strongest counters to warriors and for me who are playing Warrior atm I personally hate to pvp mages but with good prots you can stand pretty good vs a mage. Thief on the other hand with the OP poisoning they got on this shard is pretty fcked up in my opionion, but it seems like guys like u and Kunai wanna buff Thieves even more?
I dunno how good the poisonprots work vs thieves but what ive seen so far, the poisoning is pretty OP.
Just give me a good reason for thieves to be even more buffed?

[archaxe]

Before thieves were viable for pvp, we had sort of a "rock, paper, scissors" situation with mages > warriors, warriors > rangers and rangers > mages. Where do you guys think thieves should fit into this system? What are their current strenghts/weaknesses, and what should they be?

How would it be if poison protection provided partial protection, instead of immunity (which is binary), similar to how magical protection works vs mages (and how physical protection works vs warriors/rangers). Currently, anyone who happen to find a Snake Handler+ item would be immune to thieves' poison, I suppose?

[Vex]

Mar 23, 2015 15:26:40 GMT 1 pred said:

Obviously mages are the strongest counters to warriors and for me who are playing Warrior atm I personally hate to pvp mages but with good prots you can stand pretty good vs a mage. Thief on the other hand with the OP poisoning they got on this shard is pretty fcked up in my opionion, but it seems like guys like u and Kunai wanna buff Thieves even more?
I dunno how good the poisonprots work vs thieves but what ive seen so far, the poisoning is pretty OP.
Just give me a good reason for thieves to be even more buffed?

When did anyone ask for a buff to thieves in PvP? We've only offered reasoning that a nerf is unwarranted.

[Vex]

Mar 23, 2015 15:44:00 GMT 1 archaxe said:

Before thieves were viable for pvp, we had sort of a "rock, paper, scissors" situation with mages > warriors, warriors > rangers and rangers > mages. Where do you guys think thieves should fit into this system? What are their current strenghts/weaknesses, and what should they be?

How would it be if poison protection provided partial protection, instead of immunity (which is binary), similar to how magical protection works vs mages (and how physical protection works vs warriors/rangers). Currently, anyone who happen to find a Snake Handler+ item would be immune to thieves' poison, I suppose?

The issue with adding a scaling resist to poison from thieves is that there is no items in the game currently to increase scaling of poisons. Other classes have items that can increase the effectiveness of their main source of damage, where thieves have none. Thieves are strong at this point in the game(And really only the two thieves that happen to have put the effort in, and are spec 4 at this time), but as the other classes get more gear, they continue to become exponentially more powerful, while thieves have hit a wall and the only possible increase is when they eventually hit spec 5. 

[ironclad]

Isn't thief poison like level 9? Highest poison prot is 6, or is that not how it works?

I'm not sure if I think thieves are imbalanced right now, I haven't even fought any. But I know that the most annoying thing when hunting is getting poisoned all the time from casters and venomous creatures, and generally the things that feels most annoying to be the victim of are the things that are really good pvp.

[Vex]

Mar 23, 2015 16:01:18 GMT 1 ironclad said:

Isn't thief poison like level 9? Highest poison prot is 6, or is that not how it works?

I'm not sure if I think thieves are imbalanced right now, I haven't even fought any. But I know that the most annoying thing when hunting is getting poisoned all the time from casters and venomous creatures, and generally the things that feels most annoying to be the victim of are the things that are really good pvp.

The difference in being poisoned while hunting, and being poisoned by a thief.. When hunting, the mobs that poison you also do a significant amount of damage from another source(Either physical attacks or spells), where a thief relies almost completely on their poison to be able to do damage.

[archaxe]

What items increase damage output for warriors, rangers and mages? Damage modifiers, like Vanq., Devastation etc? Or tactics mods, silverdragon/liche gear?

[Vex]

GM Weapons, Swift/Vanq/Dev items, Str and Tactics mods

Magic bonus crafted gear, ebook, nbook, Sage's Robe, int mods


For thieves, very little of our damage comes from physical attacks, as we rely almost completely on our poisons. There's no items that make us able to do anything outside of what we can do from skills alone(Like ebook and nbook do for mages), or increase our main source of damage(Like stat mods, tactics mods, weapons with damage modifiers, Sage's robe).

[Kunai]

Poison is easy to counter. Like stated a gazillion times in 2 topics... There are other ways to cure poison than eith bandages. I promise you there are ways to counter thief poison. Im not gonna sit here and say how what you should do step by step to kill a thief cuz I enjoy PKing you
Figure it out for yourselves. It might be something you are doing wrong. A nerf isn't the only solution to your problem

[archaxe]

How much damage does each tick do? Does the damage depend on the victim's class? How long between each tick, and how long does the poisoning last?

[Vex]

We've offered up enough as to our weaknesses. At this point, I would recommend doing some testing, or wait until you're hit by one of us.

[archaxe]

For thieves, very little of our damage comes from physical attacks, as we rely almost completely on our poisons.

A very small part, you mean - the physical damage is still sizable, but the proportion is small because your poison damage is very high.


What I gather so far is that, as you've said, thieves need no gear in order to be able to PK effectively (a direct corollary from the fact that theives don't scale with gear). All they need is to land one hit, using weapons they need no skill to handle, then go into hiding and let the poison tick away. In essence, they do, what, 250 damage per hit regardless of victim's class (50 damage per tick over 5 ticks - give or take), and that damage cannot be mitigated by any means - not partially because there's no such protection, and complete immunity would render thieves pretty much useless. Most of the time, the poison cannot be cured either and since the poison lingers, you can't outrun thieves either like you can other classes. Thieves can go into hiding in combat whereas warriors and rangers have no means of detecting you. Mages take enough increased damage from your archery anyway (which, by the way, benefit from damage modifiers to the same extent warrior and rangers do, no?).

While other classes scale with items, the flip side of that is that they need these items to stay competitive. Thieves are competitive using just a poisoned bow. Since you get weapons skills by default, thieves need neither gear NOR weapon skills, and still they come out on top. I would guess that earthbooks, necrobooks, Sage's robes and GM weapons are less common than deadly poison potions (even if marginally so).

Because thieves play a radically different game, they need to be tuned accordingly. Currently, they don't seem to be - perhaps quite weak PvE (come to think of it, is there any monster they cannot kill now that legendary monsters are susceptible to poison?), and very powerful PvP.

One solution would be to introduce some kind of gear scaling - items to make thieves poison more potent, and items to protect against the poison.
Another solution could be to disentangle the damage of a poison from the difficulty in curing it. Currently, better poison deals more damage AND is harder to cure. You could make it so the damage stays the same but it's easier to cure, or lower the damage and keep the difficulty to cure the same.

Regarding earth and necrobooks (or any spell casting, for that matter), aren't those pretty much nullified by the fact that you get interrupted as soon as you take damage while the casting reticle is up?